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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to beat the BDG (Read 98222 times)
Gambit
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #34 - 01/22/08 at 02:47:24
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I did not forget anything. Yes, I said that 5...c6 is chicken, and I still stand by that. However, you asked me about 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5  3 e4 e6
4 e5 Nfd7 5 f4 c5 and I said that this variation was chicken because it AVOIDS the BDG.

You should pay more close attention to what I am writing, MNb, because obviously you misunderstand.  As for selective memory, I don't have a selective memory, but you do. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that you quote me from a completely thread than the one I was discussing?

BOTH of the above variations --- 5...c6  and transposing into the French Defense -- are chicken, for different reasons. The line 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 c6 is chicken because Black just waits around passively. The line 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 e6 4 e5 Nfd7 5 f4 c5 is chicken because Black avoids the BDG.

Hope you can understand that, MNb. Or do I have to write that out in Polish, Russian and German?
  
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MNb
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #33 - 01/21/08 at 20:33:59
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You seem to have forgotten what you wrote about 5...c6, the so called Ziegler defence: going into the BDG and playing 5...c6 is chicken, chicken, chicken. Everything Black can play and you don't like is chicken. So chicken equals you not liking; you don't like it because it's good.
Alas I don't have a remedy for a selective memory.
« Last Edit: 01/22/08 at 03:13:16 by MNb »  
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Gambit
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #32 - 01/21/08 at 17:48:55
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MNb wrote on 01/21/08 at 02:08:21:
You are contradicting yourself, dear LDZ. You wrote many, many times that 5...c6 is a chicken move - still Black has gone into your favorite gambit. No, the smell is not mine.


Not really. The line I was referring to is 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 e6 4 e5 Nfd7 5 f4 c5 NOT 5...c6 in the BDG Accepted.

No, you are the the one who misunderstands, not me. Check your own earlier post.
  
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MNb
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #31 - 01/21/08 at 02:08:21
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You are contradicting yourself, dear LDZ. You wrote many, many times that 5...c6 is a chicken move - still Black has gone into your favorite gambit. No, the smell is not mine.
  
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Gambit
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #30 - 01/21/08 at 01:57:31
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That's horse manure, MNb. Chicken means being afraid of going into a gambit. The line you give leads to equality, no more. I have played against it many, many times.
  
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MNb
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #29 - 01/21/08 at 01:53:51
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Gambit wrote on 01/18/08 at 21:18:37:
What do you expect when Black chickens out into a French Defense?
That said, I had decent results with playing f4 in tournament games.

In common English this means: 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 is inferior because of d5 3.e4 e6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5. Whenever LDZ uses the word chicken out please read Black plays a very good defence, probably leading to an advantage.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #28 - 01/21/08 at 00:26:57
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Gambit wrote on 09/13/07 at 19:46:23:
Instead of 6 Bb3?, White should play 6 Bd3!, when Black does not have a target anymore. That's first.

Secondly, if you are pro-gambit, Craig, you should not be afraid to play other defenses than 5...c6. What's wrong with the Bogoljubow, the Euwe, the Teichmann, the 5...Bf5 - Gunderam?



My experience in both over the board and correspondence was as follows.

Bogoljubow - If both white and black really know the theory then the game reaches approximate equality. However if either player messes up they will lose. I have an improvement for white but it is pretty scary.

Teichmann - I am not sure on this.

Gunderam - the so called main line leads to a better ending for white where black has to fight hard and probably loses.

However there are transpositions between the Teichmann and Gunderam variations which are really tricky.

I will not post details as I have been giving the BDG a rest for a couple of years and would need to look up my archives.   
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #27 - 01/18/08 at 22:09:14
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That could come to the same thing as the line I mentioned earlier, which seems to be at least decent for White:  1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 e6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Be3 (or 5. f4 c5 6. c3 Qb6 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. g3 looks interesting) etc.
  
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Gambit
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #26 - 01/18/08 at 21:18:37
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What do you expect when Black chickens out into a French Defense?
That said, I had decent results with playing f4 in tournament games.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #25 - 01/18/08 at 20:54:00
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An addict to this development gambit recommends to lose a tempo against the French? Something like 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f3?
Something's wrong in the world today.
  
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Gambit
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #24 - 01/18/08 at 20:35:48
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Big deal, Mr. Flude! So push the pawn to f4!
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #23 - 01/18/08 at 13:59:04
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kylemeister wrote on 09/14/07 at 18:03:52:
alumbrado wrote on 09/14/07 at 17:58:21:
ArKheiN wrote on 09/14/07 at 15:42:27:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 4.e5, will you play e6 as Black? if yes there is nothing wrong for White in this French-type position.

1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 c5 3.d5 will generally lead into the King's  Indian Saemisch/Benoni hybrid which are ok too for White. The most usual move order is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5.


Hmm, I agree with the second part of that but I think the French-type position 'needs more tests' as they say.  I mean, that pawn can't stay on f3 forever so he will have to play f3-f4 at some point, which is a loss of tempo, but compared to an Advance French, Black has used two moves to get his knight to (arguably) a sub-optimal square at d7 (shouldn't it be going to e7/h6 and then f5?) while compared to a Tarrasch, White hasn't committed his knight to the d2 square.  Then again, White wouldn;t normally play f4 in an Advance and it can be quite useful having Nd2 in in the Tarrasch ...

Interesting!


This could end up the same as the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4 d5 4. f3 Nf6 5. e4 e6 6. e5 Nfd7 7. Be3 c5 8. c3 Nc6 9. f4, which came up here a while back.


I gave up on 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3. e4 because of 3.e6 when black has reached a French Defence where the pawn on f3 wants to be on f4. 
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #22 - 09/14/07 at 18:03:52
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alumbrado wrote on 09/14/07 at 17:58:21:
ArKheiN wrote on 09/14/07 at 15:42:27:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 4.e5, will you play e6 as Black? if yes there is nothing wrong for White in this French-type position.

1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 c5 3.d5 will generally lead into the King's  Indian Saemisch/Benoni hybrid which are ok too for White. The most usual move order is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5.


Hmm, I agree with the second part of that but I think the French-type position 'needs more tests' as they say.  I mean, that pawn can't stay on f3 forever so he will have to play f3-f4 at some point, which is a loss of tempo, but compared to an Advance French, Black has used two moves to get his knight to (arguably) a sub-optimal square at d7 (shouldn't it be going to e7/h6 and then f5?) while compared to a Tarrasch, White hasn't committed his knight to the d2 square.  Then again, White wouldn;t normally play f4 in an Advance and it can be quite useful having Nd2 in in the Tarrasch ...

Interesting!


This could end up the same as the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4 d5 4. f3 Nf6 5. e4 e6 6. e5 Nfd7 7. Be3 c5 8. c3 Nc6 9. f4, which came up here a while back.
  
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #21 - 09/14/07 at 17:58:21
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/14/07 at 15:42:27:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 4.e5, will you play e6 as Black? if yes there is nothing wrong for White in this French-type position.

1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 c5 3.d5 will generally lead into the King's  Indian Saemisch/Benoni hybrid which are ok too for White. The most usual move order is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5.


Hmm, I agree with the second part of that but I think the French-type position 'needs more tests' as they say.  I mean, that pawn can't stay on f3 forever so he will have to play f3-f4 at some point, which is a loss of tempo, but compared to an Advance French, Black has used two moves to get his knight to (arguably) a sub-optimal square at d7 (shouldn't it be going to e7/h6 and then f5?) while compared to a Tarrasch, White hasn't committed his knight to the d2 square.  Then again, White wouldn;t normally play f4 in an Advance and it can be quite useful having Nd2 in in the Tarrasch ...

Interesting!
  
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Gambit
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Re: How to beat the BDG
Reply #20 - 09/14/07 at 17:29:37
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/14/07 at 15:42:27:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 4.e5, will you play e6 as Black? if yes there is nothing wrong for White in this French-type position.

1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 c5 3.d5 will generally lead into the King's  Indian Saemisch/Benoni hybrid which are ok too for White. The most usual move order is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5.


Yes, that is correct. Thanks, ArKheiN!
  
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